105. How Inclusive Communication Can Help Career Progression - With Ming Wu

Learn how inclusive communication will help you progress in your career.
Today's guest, Ming Wu, is a respected writer and advisor on inclusion, teaching and consulting for top international companies. Drawing from her own experience, Ming shares valuable tips on fostering inclusive and effective communication at work.

Learn more about Ming on her website: https://ablindinglight.com/about/

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Transcript

[00:00:47] All right, welcome Ming to Talaera Talks. It's such a pleasure to have you. How are you doing today? 

[00:00:56] I'm very well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. 

[00:01:00] Of course, thank you so much for joining us. So today we have a very exciting topic. I find it fascinating and I just want to thank you for the conversation that I know we're gonna have we've been talking a little bit about this topic, but you know it is we are going to talk about inclusive communication.

[00:01:18] And then specifically with people with a disability or differences, but to. I guess to get started and set expectations, could you share a little bit about why our listeners should care about this episode in particular? 

[00:01:34] Of course. I think when it comes to communication in general it's so important for building a culture and a workplace for showing people who we are and what we believe and how we work [00:01:47] and inclusive communication is simply a way that we can be better communicators say what we mean and really really promote a, a better and more inclusive way of interacting with each other.

[00:02:02] That's awesome. Great. Gregor. Great. So when we talk about inclusive communication, what do we actually mean 

[00:02:09] exactly? That's, that's a great question and it's a good place to start because inclusive communication is often discussed in a way that can be quite intimidating. You know, people feel that they must become an inclusive communicator and they're a bit scared of getting it wrong.

[00:02:28] I find it far more useful to think about inclusive communication as a practice you that can make us better communicators and that way it's less intimidating and actually something that can help us. So every time we communicate, regardless of who it's with or what the topic [00:02:47] is we need to aim for two things.

[00:02:49] Number one, to be understood. And number two, to engage the audience, right? So, if you're pitching to a client, for example, or if you're, you know, even asking a child to wash their hands before dinner, the aim is the same. Because if either of them don't understand you, or don't feel what you're saying is important or relevant to them, then the result will be your client won't consider your proposal, and the child won't be, won't feel inclined to wash their hands.

[00:03:18] So with that in mind, we could look at how inclusive communication can help us achieve those two goals of being understood and being engaging by looking at what inclusive communication looks like. And for me, that is two things in particular, and they are accessibility and respect. So if I can quickly cover accessibility first, there's two questions that I like to ask here.

[00:03:44] One is about the reach of our [00:03:47] message, and one is about the comprehension of our message. So when we talk about reach, this is about physical accessibility. So if you are. giving a talk in person, we need to think about the location of where we're having the talk, and the time. Can people get there easily?

[00:04:04] And then it's about the accessibility of the building itself. Is there single level access and accessible bathrooms and so on? If there are people who can't make it in person, are we providing a virtual component for them? And how accessible is that platform that we choose to use? And if we're talking about more of a written communication, then how is that message reaching our audience?

[00:04:31] If we, for example like pin a notice on a notice board in the kitchen in the office, who is going to see that? You know, people who work offsite, maybe on a construction site, or on the factory floor, people who work from home, people who travel to see clients, they're never going [00:04:47] to get that message.

[00:04:48] So, if you think an email is more appropriate, think about the timing, because those people I've just mentioned also won't have as frequent access to their devices as people who work at their desk. So, that is all about physical. accessibility. The other side of it is more to do with the comprehension. So you could call it sensory accessibility.

[00:05:08] And this is where we think about at an in person talk, are we providing audio descriptions? Do we need interpreters either into another spoken language or into sign language, for example? For the virtual component are we using captions, you know? And for any message, are we using short sentences?

[00:05:27] short paragraphs, and are we structuring the message in a way that's easy to understand? A super quick tip there is I like to follow the rule of approaching a message with First of all, what is this message about? And then second of all, why is it important? And then last of all, what next? And I find that [00:05:47] people find this easy to follow and it makes it easier for them to understand.

[00:05:51] So That's the accessibility side of inclusive communication. And the other side I talked about was respect. And here is when we talk about things like etiquette general good manners, making people feel comfortable. And culture plays a large part of that, whether that's the culture of your office, or of your industry or of the geographical location where you're doing business.

[00:06:14] it's equally as important. So, for example, the way we communicate in a marketing department might be different to how we communicate in a legal department. And you know, the culture in a tech firm in Silicon Valley might feel very different to the culture of, For example, a barrister's chambers in London, and so when you communicate with these different people, we have to think about how we can make them feel more comfortable so they're more ready to receive our information in a more and be more engaged with us.

[00:06:45] [00:06:47] And. Along with culture comes things like non verbal communication. I have a real quick story about this. I used to work in corporate law and I was working from the Hong Kong office and had this meeting with these two Japanese clients and we were waiting in the meeting room for my colleague from the Chicago office to arrive and he wasn't late he was just the last to arrive and he came in with his hands full of files and to give you a bit of background in Asia when you meet someone in a business situation for the first time the etiquette is to exchange business cards and there's it's quite ceremonial you hand over the card with two hands presenting it face up and the recipient will take it usually with a little bow or nod of the head and then they will study the card back in front before either putting it down somewhere visible carefully or putting it away if that's more appropriate but also very intentionally and you know you give the respect that the to the business card they that you feel for the, [00:07:47] you know, your business associate.

[00:07:48] My American colleague was not aware of this practice. So when he came into the room, the Japanese clients immediately stood and bowed their heads and presented their cards with their two hands. And he being having his hands full and being quite flustered, he simply took the cards out of their hands, both cards with one hand, and then stuffed them into his pocket.

[00:08:08] And everyone in the room who was, you know, aware of the, the local customs and the local business etiquette was a bit, a bit uncomfortable with it. I mean, it wasn't the best start to the meeting, it wasn't the end of the world, but it didn't make people feel comfortable and ready to engage with what we were about to talk about.

[00:08:24] And so that's non verbal communication making, you know, a big difference to the atmosphere and the feeling of the conversation that we were about to have. The other part of Respect is language, obviously, we like to use unbiased language that will help people feel more comfortable and and feel more engaged.

[00:08:45] If we use language that might inadvertently [00:08:47] make someone feel uncomfortable or even offended, then they are less likely to engage with the message that we're trying to give them. So, if we think back to the to communication goals we spoke about at the beginning to be understood and to engage the audience.

[00:09:06] We can now see how the different elements of inclusive communication really steer us towards achieving those goals and being better communicators. 

[00:09:15] I love that. And I, I love how, you know, sometimes when we think about communication, we think about it one way, I just want to be clear and I want to be understood, which is from you to the other person or towards your audience.

[00:09:31] But I love that other part of effective communication that is, you know, engage the audience, make them feel part of it and make them hear about it. And I, I just think that's key for any sort of, you know, communication [00:09:47] situation that, you know, you may want to engage. I also loved what you say, what you said about that rule of the what, why, next, what, what, why, and what 

[00:09:59] next.

[00:10:00] Exactly. The, the, what are you talking about? Why do you need to communicate this or why should they care? And what should happen next? What is the call to action? What do you need them to do? Is it for your kid to wash their hands or is it for your prospect to, you know, the deal? So that is, that Great.

[00:10:18] So we've talked about different components of what inclusive communication is you know, those two sides or two goals being understood and engaging your audience. You also talk about accessibility and respect and how respect also depends on your situation. It is culture dependent, but it also depends on the industry and your department, sometimes your own company.

[00:10:44] And when we put this all together, if [00:10:47] we go back to, or if we narrow it down to inclusive communication, why is it important? And it's actually two questions. So why is it important? But even before that, why is inclusive communication important to 

[00:11:03] you personally? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we often hear about inclusive culture and inclusive communication being the responsibility of organizations and businesses and there is obviously there's truth to that processes and systems need to be inclusive but also each and every one of us can do our part and in fact needs to do our part for me to make it work, on an organizational level, the reason why I think that inclusive communication is so important is because inclusion is such a hot topic, and it has been for so many years now that I feel like businesses are no longer asking You know why, why do I need to be inclusive as a business? You know, they understand the financial [00:11:47] benefits of creativity, the innovation employee retention, and, you know, the customer loyalty that can all come from having an inclusive culture at work.

[00:11:56] Now the question seems to have shift shifted to how. Do we be more inclusive? And this is where I think that inclusive communication is really important because when you think about building a culture, it's about people. It's about how we interact with each other, how we behave, and it's about different skills and experiences and ideas that we bring to the business.

[00:12:21] And all of that is only possible with good, inclusive communication that encourages people to be more inclusive. to show those things at work and to feel comfortable and valued for doing so. But on a more personal level, on an individual level, it's important to be able to communicate in an inclusive way, because I think it helps us grow.

[00:12:45] I think on the professional [00:12:47] side it helps us build these really meaningful connections, and it could be a connection with someone that you meet once, and then you never meet again, and it was a very quick interaction, but it can still be very meaningful if you managed to understand with each other and feel engaged with each other.

[00:13:03] Or it could be something more long term, someone you meet at work and you work with them for years and years and years. If we communicate inclusively, then what happens is that person here's what we say, feels engaged, and then is inclined to respond. And actually, that's the most important thing, because when people talk to us and communicate their ideas and impart their knowledge, that's where we learn.

[00:13:28] And it could be, something very industry or job specific skill, skill specific that they're sharing with us, or it could be something like career advice or you know, general encouragement in what you're doing. But on the other, on the other side of it it also could be something a lot [00:13:47] less tangible but still equally as important.

[00:13:50] If we make meaningful connections with people then it could be that they make us feel joyful, and they make us feel more confident. And if we learn more about other people's experiences, then that makes us, that helps us to grow as people. In work and out of work, and that is only possible. These kinds of connections are only possible if we can communicate in an inclusive way and make people feel like they can communicate with us openly as well.

[00:14:22] And so that's the first individual reason why. And secondly, I think I often hear people say things like you know, inclusive communication. It's, you know, it's this really hard thing. It's political correctness and I don't have time for it. So I disagree with this. I think it's, it's not political correctness.

[00:14:43] It, it's several other things. Firstly, it's respectful and [00:14:47] I don't think anyone would ever say I don't have time for respect because that would be, you know, appalling and no one would say it, but also For me, inclusive communication and the use of inclusive language is modern and it's it shows accuracy as well.

[00:15:04] So I'll explain what I mean by that. I think in the last 30 years, certainly in my lifetime attitudes have changed towards inclusion and towards people who are different to ourselves. And there are phrases that People used quite widely when I was a child which nowadays would not be acceptable.

[00:15:22] And the reason why it's not acceptable is because our attitudes have evolved, and all inclusive language is, is a shift in our language to, so that it's aligned with our attitudes once again. And this is what I mean by accuracy, because if we use language that's sort of outdated. If we're using language patterns that are quite deep rooted, and we're using them out of habit, but [00:15:47] actually we're not saying what we mean, then that's not accurate, and we're not giving our audience you know, an accurate picture of who we are and what we believe.

[00:15:56] Inclusive language is simply a way to say what we mean. And this shift in semantics is a skill that we all already have. If you think about, I don't know, technology, for example in the 1980s, if you said to someone, this is my phone number, then they would know what you mean. They would know that this is a phone that is in your home that's plugged into the wall.

[00:16:16] And if they call the number, when you're at home, then they will get you. Otherwise, no one will answer the phone. But, you know, as time went on, say in the early 2000s, when people started getting mobile phones or cell phones, they would start saying, this is my landline, and this is my mobile. Because that's more accurate, because then the recipient, the audience know, you know, what to expect when they ring that number.

[00:16:39] And I think, you know, No one has a problem with that because it's simply accurate, you know, it's not it's language [00:16:47] evolving to align with the advancement in technology. And when we talk about inclusive language, it's simply the same thing. It's language evolving to align with our attitudes. And. If you don't use inclusive language at work, the danger is you will appear outdated and you will, you know, seem a bit old fashioned.

[00:17:08] You know, and that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is people will believe what you say and people will believe that your attitudes are aligned with the old fashioned language that you're using. I 

[00:17:23] never thought of it that way, but it makes so much sense. Of course, there's two highlights for me with what you just said.

[00:17:30] One is saying, I don't have time for political correctness. But you saying, well, wouldn't, would you ever say I don't have time for respect? I like that. I like that approach a lot. Yeah. Inclusive communication as. [00:17:47] And how it, I love that analogy that you used and how it reflects our new perspectives, our new attitudes, our new reality.

[00:17:57] So that was brilliant. Thank you so much for that. I really appreciate it. And so we've talked about, you know, moving or shifting from the why we should do this. focus on or you know, work on inclusive communication to how we can do it. So that's what I'd love to actually get from you. Like, how do we talk about specifically now, because inclusive communication can mean You talked about using unbiased language that can refer to culture, it can refer to gender, it can refer to many, many different things, but talk about disability and differences.

[00:18:38] How do you do it? What's 

[00:18:39] the right way to do it? I think this is a really great thing to talk about, Paola, because I feel like [00:18:47] we don't talk about how to talk about disability we don't talk about it in schools, we don't talk about it as adults, and the result is if you've never had close contact with someone with a disability, and then you suddenly meet someone with a disability, say you, you have a new colleague who, who is you know, who has a disability in some way, then you don't know how to talk about it, because it's never been brought up before, and often the result of that is that we don't talk about it, and that's really unhealthy so, I think this is, you know, a really important topic that we should cover more and the first thing to remember is that people with different abilities, whether that's, you know, physical abilities or cognitive abilities, they are people, in the first instance, they're all very individual.

[00:19:36] So if we use the example of someone who is blind, because that is something I have experience of, so I'm comfortable talking about it if we [00:19:47] imagine that two people who are blind you know come into a workplace, and then you, as their new colleague, assume that because you know how this works, person prefers you to talk about their blindness then you assume that the other person, you know, also is comfortable with that, you know, same way of talking about their disability.

[00:20:11] I think this is something that I see happen quite a lot. And it's something that we really need to avoid because people in the disabled community are as individual and have their own preferences as much as people in the sighted community. So I think the very first thing to remember is everyone is individual.

[00:20:29] And although there are some broad rules, we can follow, you know, guidelines that might help us in these difficult conversations. It's really best to find out what the individual prefers and feels comfortable with. And I suppose the question then is how do we do that? So if we say, for [00:20:47] example need to, work with a new colleague, whether they're disabled or not, the first thing we need to do is find out how we can work with them most effectively.

[00:20:55] So if, I was starting in a new workplace and someone came to me and said something like, Oh forgive me for asking, but I've never worked with someone who is visually impaired before. Is there anything that I can do to make sure that we can work together most effectively or, you know, make things easier for each other?

[00:21:17] I can't see how that could be offensive. I feel like that is you know, a really, sensible question, and then as long as it's asked in a sensitive way I think that's okay. I think that's acceptable. The important thing to remember is once you've asked the question is to listen, you know, be open and be humble as well.

[00:21:40] We might have preconceived ideas of what we expect the person to tell us, and [00:21:47] it's it might not be the case, so always expect to be surprised. When when you ask these kinds of questions. So first, yeah, so firstly, ask the questions and really listen to the answer. I mean, some very general guidelines you can follow, I suppose.

[00:22:04] First of all, it's always useful to use person first language. And this is The kind of language that acknowledges that an individual is a person first and their disability is secondary to that. So an example is you could say my blind colleague and then an alternative to that is my colleague who is blind.

[00:22:27] And my colleague who is blind is more respectful because It puts the person before the disability in the sentence. A blind person is not necessarily offensive. It's just slightly less sensitive than a person who is blind. And so you could [00:22:47] use that person first language. with any differences that there are between us, you know whether it's a disability or something else.

[00:22:57] So, so that's very useful. Another thing that is, you know, quite important in a workplace is when we talk about modifications and accommodations for people with disabilities. So an example I could give is if someone sent an email with a training video in it. They might say, this is a link to the training video, and there's a link, and this is a link to the version for colleagues who are blind, and then a link.

[00:23:27] Now I, that would make me feel a little bit uncomfortable, because of a couple of reasons. Firstly, because it's drawing everyone's attention to the fact that there is a colleague who is blind, and that person is me. So, that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. And the second point is what we were talking before about [00:23:47] inclusive communication is not necessarily completely accurate.

[00:23:51] Because an audio described video is useful for people who are also sighted, but perhaps want to listen to the content, maybe they're commuting or doing something else. So an audio described video is not just for someone with a visual impairment or someone who is blind. So a better way to word that would be, here is a link to the here is a link to the training video, and here is a link to the audio described version.

[00:24:19] So I don't know if you've heard of the curb cut effect, and this is the idea that accessible or inclusive design features actually benefit the visually impaired. And where this came from was when you find like a dip in, in the pavement which were designed to allow wheelchair users to access the sidewalks more easily.

[00:24:37] It turns out that those dips in, in the curb actually are useful to a much wider group of people, you know, people who, you know, may [00:24:47] have an injury at the time, people who are carrying heavy boxes or have a, wheeling a suitcase or pushing a stroller. So, it's useful to think about accessibility in our communications in the same way.

[00:25:00] If we provide captions, it's not just for people who are hearing impaired. You know, it's great for people who, might be in a really loud place and can't really hear what you're saying at the time, it might be great for people for whom English is not their first language and captions really help them with the comprehension of what's being said.

[00:25:19] So, Talk about the modification so it doesn't bring attention to the disability and it's more inclusive because it invites everyone else to enjoy the benefits of that modification too. 

[00:25:33] I think that makes so much sense. I've, that's one tip that I heard in the past that I found very helpful for me personally using person first language.

[00:25:42] Especially when the, there's information that [00:25:47] is not relevant, right? Like when you would introduce a colleague that is I don't know, has short hair. You might not even point it out because it is not relevant to the conversation. So I think with this, I, I find it the same way. Like, why would you even say my colleague who is blind unless there is some relevant information that comes with it?

[00:26:04] I don't know that also. It makes sense, but 

[00:26:08] always know. I mean, it completely makes sense. And the whole point of inclusion and inclusive communication is once you really get to know how that colleague who is blind works and what they prefer it becomes a non issue. And then you don't actually need to talk about the disability anymore.

[00:26:27] This is something that I found everywhere I worked when I used to work in a more corporate environment. You know, the first Couple of weeks, you know, even months, depending on what kind of organization it was, would You know, there would be some conversations about the fact that I couldn't see, and how people could provide information to me in the [00:26:47] best way, you know, what I needed if I was presenting in a meeting, and that kind of thing.

[00:26:51] But after a while, and a quite short while usually, people got really used to it. And it was just a non issue. People would almost forget about the fact that I'm blind, and you know, concentrate on the work, or, you know, the friendship, or, you know, you know, whatever it is that other than the disability.

[00:27:10] And I think, if inclusive communication is successful, and, you know, we really do achieve a more inclusive culture, then that's where we end up, where we don't notice a disability at all. 

[00:27:21] I love that, and I would, I guess we could draw some similarities with the, the topic that we usually talk about most often, and that is communication for non native English professionals.

[00:27:31] It's very odd to go into a room being the only non native English speaker, and for them, pointing you out and saying, Oh, let's, let's make this easy as an easy conversation so that they can understand. Right. I think the goal would be, let's [00:27:47] all communicate in a clear way so that all of us can actually understand each other.

[00:27:51] And not so much because we have someone with different abilities, different skills, different. 

[00:27:57] You know, yeah, that's true. And when we are communicating either, you know, in a work setting in a professional environment, it's important to, you know, keep things clear and not necessarily a simple, but certainly, you know, try and word things in a way that no one feels uncomfortable because they don't understand something which, you know, Which sometimes you think, why would they?

[00:28:22] Because people often use industry specific language or acronyms that they really only use on their team. So even if it's like an internal meeting with other departments, they might not understand what these acronyms are or these industry specific terms. So, you know, back to our goals for communication.

[00:28:42] We want to be understood and we want people to feel engaged. Well, if we make, if we use these [00:28:47] kind of terms, people don't understand what we're saying and they're less engaged because they feel like the message isn't relevant to them, and they're uncomfortable because they feel like they're the only one who doesn't understand.

[00:28:57] And so if we think of inclusion, inclusive communication. If we can word that message in a way that's more inclusive, then it also helps us be better communicators. So everyone in the room can understand what we're saying. 

[00:29:08] Absolutely. Absolutely. So then we have asking I like what you said, you know, there's, is there, is there anything I can do to work together in a more effective way?

[00:29:21] Listen to the answer that tip. As we forget super actually listen without any any, I guess, preconceptions, any, Yeah. I hope any biases in our head try to be as neutral as possible and just move, actually. Yeah. Especially, 

[00:29:38] yeah, 

[00:29:38] especially 

[00:29:39] if you do work in an international workplace as well, because preferences and [00:29:47] terminology in, when it comes to disability can vary across cultures and vary, and what's acceptable in one country may not be the norm in another country.

[00:29:57] So you might have. you know, two colleagues in different countries with the same disability and you, you think I've got this because I know what this person prefers, but actually in another country, it could be completely different. So you're right. Preconceptions, you know, we all have them where we all have them.

[00:30:13] It's like a cognitive shortcut that everybody uses without thinking. We need to try and put those aside, be really aware of them. When we're asking people about their individual preferences. 

[00:30:23] Absolutely. Yeah, they're, they're a psychological trick and, and they help us actually get through life in a more efficient way.

[00:30:30] It, the issue comes when we just believe them no matter what, and we don't allow ourselves to reconfigure them as we learn more about the world. Yeah. Great. Is there anything we should try to avoid? You mentioned at the beginning that we're all [00:30:47] scared of getting it wrong. And I'm for one, someone who's always scared of finding 

[00:30:53] people saying 

[00:30:54] the wrong thing.

[00:30:55] And so I might. Feel where I might look like I'm an you know, I'm shy and I don't want to talk when I'm the total I just want to make sure that no one gets offended. So any Anything that I should avoid any other tips To take into consideration. 

[00:31:13] No, I think yeah, I mean first and foremost is don't Don't be afraid of inclusive communication, you know, it's something to remember is we're all, you know, at different points in our journey when it comes to inclusive communication, it's language is always evolving and our attitudes are always evolving.

[00:31:31] So we're never all going to be at the same point in that journey. And so be gentle with yourself and if you do make a mistake, and use it as an opportunity to learn something new, rather than an excuse to shut down the conversation and hide away from it. And [00:31:47] things to, that you could do to avoid making those mistakes is just by doing a little bit of homework.

[00:31:53] I mean, if you know you're going to be working with a particular colleague in, you know, in a country where you have a business presence, but you don't know much about the culture, just do your homework. It could be anything from, you know, talking to someone who has worked there before, or, you know, you know, even just doing a quick search online, you know, just try and be a little bit prepared.

[00:32:14] And so we don't have the whole business card issue, making everyone feel very uncomfortable. So that can really help you, you know, being prepared can really help you. And, and also be authentic, say what you mean. You know, if you I believe most people are good people, and if you try and say what you mean if you're accurate, then I think usually we don't go too far wrong.

[00:32:38] And and if you do feel like you may have made a slip up, then ask. Then, you know, just be really honest about it, and, [00:32:47] and ask, you know, I think You know, I feel like that might not have been the correct way to say that, or maybe there are better ways to say that. You know, can you tell me what you think?

[00:32:56] You know, what would you prefer I have said instead? Would this have been better? Would that have been better? Always ask, be curious and open. Because You know, it's all about learning. There's no handbook out there with, you know, a comprehensive list of do's and don'ts when it comes to inclusive communication.

[00:33:14] Just, you know, it be respectful be accept that you're going to make mistakes and be okay with that. And always try and learn, learn from the people around us and absorb that information. And then hopefully you'll make less mistakes going forward. 

[00:33:31] That's great. And so let's say, because a big chunk of our audience are non native English speakers, and you talked about that throughout your lifetime, language has changed and it's evolved in the last [00:33:47] 30 years.

[00:33:47] You know, people who are blind or people who are, you know, who can't hear or have some, you know. Language has changed and as you said, we don't talk about, we don't talk about this. So perhaps the word that I learned at school on how to say, for example, blind or deaf, those are words that we learned back at school, but I don't know if they're correct anymore.

[00:34:12] I see what you mean. If you're referring to a disability then again, I think accuracy is the key. There are so many words to describe. You know, blindness, for example. Some people prefer blind, or legally blind, or visually impaired, or partially sighted. I don't mind any of them, but some people might have a strong preference.

[00:34:31] The only way you know, the only way you can know what the best thing to say is is to ask them. Or think about the the culture of the country and, and do your research that way. In England people use partially sighted a lot. In the US, I've noticed people use visually impaired a lot [00:34:47] more. What I would say is when it comes to, you know, medical terms, I don't think you can go too far wrong as long as it's something that is accurate and current.

[00:34:57] What I would avoid is well two things really. Number one is we have to be more aware of health terms that we're using in our everyday language. So intensifiers, these are words that we used to add impact to what we're saying. So we can say things like, oh it's very busy today, But that we may feel like that that doesn't have the emphasis that we're looking for it's not enough And then people will say things like oh, you know, it's crazy, you know And that is you know using a term that should be reserved for talking about you know, mental health or you know, and it's not something that in 2024 is considered inclusive or acceptable.

[00:35:46] Whereas, you know, in [00:35:47] 1984, perhaps it would have been fine. And sometimes people say things like you know, that was really lame, you know, if something was boring or something like that. And, and that, you know, also refers to a physical disability. And it's not appropriate to use that you know, in any setting.

[00:36:04] So how we can, if If something that we say to, like, either describe a feeling describe a situation, or to intensify our meaning, refers to a health term, then avoid it. That's what I would say. There's always alternatives out there. Like, you could say instead of that was, you know, that's crazy, you could say that's absurd.

[00:36:31] That's ridiculous, or that's complete nonsense. I think all of those are just as intense, and, and convey the same meaning, but are not likely to offend anyone. Instead of saying something's lame, you know, you could say, it's pathetic, because that's fine. That doesn't refer to anyone's [00:36:47] mental health, it doesn't refer to anyone's physical health, or any particular differences between people.

[00:36:53] So that's something to be aware of in your language if it, it's, it's sort of a, you sometimes have to pause before you talk and think about, is what I'm about to say referring to anyone's health? Because you don't know about the people around you. You don't know how someone might have been affected by mental health in the past.

[00:37:14] It could have been a loved one or a family member. It could have been themselves. And you don't want to. Make the people feel uncomfortable. People might not be outraged or offended, but we still don't want to make people feel uncomfortable because then they're less engaged with what we're trying to say to them and less likely to want to build that connection with us.

[00:37:37] Thank you so much for, for sharing it and I'll definitely apply it in my life. So to wrap up the episode. Do you have any [00:37:47] tips, practical advice on how we can all help to cultivate an inclusive workplace? 

[00:37:55] Sure. I could give you a few. I mean, first of all it takes a lot of courage. And so the first thing I would say is be brave and bring your authentic self to work, whatever that looks like.

[00:38:07] Even if you don't feel like, you know, you're in the minority, you know, you don't have a physical disability there's nothing that's particularly different. to what people consider to be usual about you. Bring your authentic self, all your quirks and you know, all your differences. And, you know, set that example for the people who come after you.

[00:38:30] Especially if you're in a more senior position, being authentic will inspire those In the business who look up to you to follow suit because we tend to, you know, get out what we put into a situation. Along the same lines I would say it's okay to [00:38:47] call out a situation that is not inclusive.

[00:38:50] But the important thing to remember is. As important as it is to make someone aware that they're being, you know less than inclusive, it's also important to consider how we approach that conversation. There is nothing worse than someone getting outraged on behalf of someone else. I find that really really uncomfortable and inappropriate.

[00:39:15] So for example, if we go back to the, what we talked about earlier, someone sends out a training video, maybe there is no audio described version. That's not inclusive and it does need to be remedied. So instead of, you know, going to the person all angry and upset, and emotional to talk about it.

[00:39:33] They could just say, Oh, I noticed that you didn't send a link to the audio version. Is that coming soon? Is that? You know, is that going to follow? Is that going to follow soon? And I think sometimes people just need a gentle reminder. [00:39:47] They're not doing it deliberately to be offensive. Sometimes they just need to be reminded.

[00:39:52] So although the conversation is, in fact, about entitlement, It's about something that people are. Yes, entitled to and maybe don't have access to currently. It's not productive to enter that conversation with an attitude of entitlement. You know, we, we should be talking about these difficult issues with, with respect and with dignity and with a bit of grace as well.

[00:40:16] You know, be a little bit forgiving to ourselves and to others because we're all on this journey together. So that's the second tip, I suppose, call things out when they need to be called out, but do it. In a respectful way. And Another thing we can do is check our biases. We all have biases. We talked about this a little bit earlier.

[00:40:37] But we sometimes let them creep into our language without realizing. I think all of us are aware, for example, that people's family [00:40:47] situations can be very varied. And So When you say something like, Oh, how was your weekend with your wife? You might not notice that your language is biased because it's such a deep rooted language pattern that we've known ever since we were little.

[00:41:04] If we're talking to a male, we generally ask about their wife, you know, in 1984, but we're in 2024 now. So a non gendered Substitute for that would be far better. Something like you know, how is your partner or something like that? And even things like if we talk about a, you know, a child's parent, you know, is a mom or a dad or a parent.

[00:41:28] Children are brought up by other people, relatives grandparents you know, other legal guardians. So, you know, a word like caregiver is far more neutral and unbiased. So, when in doubt, what terms to use? always, you know, find something that sounds neutral, that doesn't have [00:41:47] any hint of bias to it. And then that would just make everyone feel a lot more comfortable with talking about their own situations and that, that, you know, their own beliefs as well.

[00:41:58] Brilliant. Yeah. So, so hopefully that that's useful. 

[00:42:02] That is a lot of great, great tips. In terms of, and just a couple more specifics that I, while I have you here, I, I want to make sure I ask you. So when we talk about being inclusive with someone who doesn't speak English very well, for example, work in an international work environment.

[00:42:22] One thing that we often give is to share the agenda in advance, because that way they can look at it, they can prepare vocabulary that they may not know, practice before the meeting, and then be able to participate and to bring their best. So it's a very small thing that we can all do before a meeting to share the agenda and to share the different talking points that makes a big impact.

[00:42:46] Would [00:42:47] you be able to share perhaps some of those little things that help you as someone with a visual impairment, at work, do your job the best way possible? 

[00:43:00] Of course. Yeah. I mean, just what you were saying, sharing agendas and slides before time is really important because often someone who is blind will use screen reading technology, for example, and sometimes that's not appropriate to use in the middle of a meeting.

[00:43:16] So it's definitely. better to have that beforehand so that we can read it on a screen reader. Remembering things like visual descriptions of things. So if we are talking in a meeting about you know, a physical item, something that we're pointing to or something that is over there, you know, you have to be more descriptive.

[00:43:41] What does over there mean? Over there, you know, it's like, Oh straight in front of you and to the left, or, you know, [00:43:47] at your nine o'clock. This kind of thing, you know, if you're looking at, if you're thinking about the face of a clock, then nine o'clock is directly to your left. So being very specific about that, you know, describing visual descriptions.

[00:44:00] If you are sitting down at a meeting table or sitting down to a business lunch, if someone is visually impaired, it is useful to, you know, guide them when you, when they get to their chair, if, if they can't find their chair, put their hand on the back of the chair. You know, don't try and wrestle them into the chair, you know, just things like that.

[00:44:18] Be aware of personal space at the same time as helping them. You can describe to them, you know, your glass is straight in front of you and the microphone is to your left, that kind of thing. And just giving visual descriptions of surroundings is, you know, is very helpful. And then, you know, providing information in different formats.

[00:44:38] I can't read text but some people with visual impairments can. So perhaps they would prefer a large print [00:44:47] version of the agenda instead of you know in, in a normal size font or Maybe in braille even it's useful to know that actually most people who are blind don't read braille now so I think the statistics are something like 80 percent of blind people do not read braille.

[00:45:06] So don't just assume because someone has a visual impairment that if you provide the information in braille that it, you know, it's going to be great for them, because it's sometimes not very useful. But yeah, and also just maybe doing things in a systematic way you know, in a logical way and sticking to systems when you can't see, it's really useful to know what's coming and be prepared.

[00:45:31] So if you've established that this is a great way to do something, then keep doing it that way. And if you're going to change it, then you know, talk about it first. So, yeah, and, you know, keep that conversation about. how we can work together most [00:45:47] effectively is an ongoing one. And you know, although you, once you're comfortable with each other, you don't talk about the disability as much, if something comes up in a professional setting that, you know, could be done better, then it's always worth talking about.

[00:46:00] That's wonderful. And that's, I think my biggest takeaway from today's conversation is to actually have that conversation and talk from always from a respectable place and, and, With the place of genuine curiosity and authenticity and always, always, always respect for sure. This was. Amazing. Ming, it was great.

[00:46:25] I learned a lot today and I can only say thank you for sharing all this knowledge and, and all these tips. Is there anything else that you would like to add to share with our audience before we wrap it up? 

[00:46:43] Nothing in particular. I think just [00:46:47] always to keep learning and be open, always be open and humble.

[00:46:53] Always expect surprises. Don't assume you know everything already. And I think that will take you a very, very long way. That's wonderful. Thank you, Ming. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Awesome.